How can we go on living with impossible problems? Green writer David Fleming influenced the UK Green Party, the Transition Towns movement, & new economics. Fleming passed away in 2010, leaving an unpublished dictionary for our survival. Writer & editor Shaun Chamberlin picked up the torch for his friend & mentor, with 2 new books on Fleming’s work: “Lean Logic” and “Surviving the Future”. UK’s Greg Moffitt, host of talks with Chamberlin.

Writer and podcaster Greg Moffitt lives in York, England. He’s previously hosted two Radio Ecoshock shows. The first was in 2013, “The Burning Question. We Can’t Burn Half the World’s Oil, Coal and Gas. So How Do We Quit?” – a new book by carbon footprint expert, author and Guardian journalist Mike Berners-Lee. In 2015, he brought us an interview with scientist David Fridley, from Berkeley National Lab and the Post-Carbon Institute.


Podcaster and writer Greg Moffitt

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Shaun Chamberlin‘s work has been published by the BBC, the Guardian newspaper, and many others. He’s the UK and European commissioning editor for Chelsea Green Publishing – which just published Fleming’s masterwork called “Lean Logic” plus a shorter guide to Fleming’s work, called “Surviving the Future“. Shaun is well known for his “Dark Optimism” blog.


Shaun Chamberlin

All of this is explained, with readings from David Fleming’s work, in this new feature-length interview by Greg Moffitt.  If you are looking for a survivable pathway to the future, here is Greg Moffitt with Shaun Chamberlin.

Download this Radio Ecoshock show in CD Quality (56 MB) or Lo-Fi (14 MB)

Or listen right now.


The Fleming Policy Centre for the follow-up and study of David Fleming’s work can be found here.

Listening to this interview, I did have one doubt. At minute 7:12: does a “shared cultural understanding” and localizing production also connect to nativism or nationalism?

But the thrilling part of David Fleming’s logic, well captured in this interview, is this plan does not require us to beg governments or protest against them. Fleming shows us how the future we want really is up to us. He’s an alternative economist, who has seen it all, so Fleming isn’t just offering a fake future. His vision could really work, and is already beginning to work in the first Transition Towns and community-building efforts in many parts of the world.

I’m not going to rehash what was said. Listen for the several quotes directly from David Fleming, as read by Shaun. I think you’ll also catch the realism without giving up that Shaun Chamberlin is known for.

At one point host Greg Moffitt says he doesn’t argue with people about climate change. It’s happening, that’s obvious, he says – but it doesn’t matter what is causing it. I disagree completely. Humans are causing it, and humans can stop the developing catastrophe. But again, Shaun doesn’t pick up the argument – instead he shows the kind of “lean logic” that Fleming teaches. It’s a kind of “third way out” solution you may be able to use with any climate doubters you encounter. That alone is well worth the time of this interview.



My thanks to Greg Moffitt for this interview. Greg’s podcast is found at Note that’s the English spelling of “legalise” with an “s”, followed by a dash, then

I’ll return next week, with more interviews of top scientists, authors and activists. Look for my interview with Dr. Thomas Crowther, the lead author for a group of 50 scientists who show the soil of a warming world will add as much carbon to the atmosphere, every year, as the current United States does. It’s shocking news.

A very special thank you to everyone who chipped in to support making this program. After paying off the bills, including for the new Radio Ecoshock web site, I’m setting aside some money to make sure monthly bills are covered well into the spring.

Plus, I’m going to add two new ergonomic aids to my studio, to keep me going in the long run. The first is a sit-stand desk to allow me to stand part of the day, instead of being hunched over the computer too long. I’m also look for a bigger monitor, which will allow me to multitask with several windows or programs. That may save me an hour or two a week. Plus the monitor has several eye-saving features, which matters quite a bit when I do this day after day for ten years. So many thanks!!

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